"Well, turning that around on me didn't clear up anything. You failed to clarify whether or not you have read the Bible." I did in fact read the Bible, which is where the information in my post came from. You people seem to think that ANYBODY who disagrees with the church hasn't read the Bible.

"It is an honest question, based on you whole post, which I indeed read to its end." If you read it, then perhaps you'd like to bring up the parts you didn't bring up.

"It is quite disingenuous to accuse God of "breaking his own rules" without any attempt to show such a case." Perhaps you should read all the stories where he commits genocide and other heinous acts, and orders the committing of genocide and other heinous acts.

"Besides, God made the "rules" for humanity, and most do not apply to Him." Typical for those in power. As DarkMatter2525 once said, "Power Corrupts".

"Define "honest man," and I will reconsider my opinion. Just having the "courage" to trash talk the Creator of the Universe does not make you "honest."" Says you.

"And then, God showed LOVE, not HATE, by taking the consequences of His people's sins upon himself." By outright KILLING them.

"Even those who end up in Hell go there because they do not want to be with God. They are happy to live life on their own terms." But the thing is, he condemns ANYBODY who disagrees with him to eternal torture in Hell.

Horridinsidious- your statements are still not providing any arguments, you o rmore or less just critizing the Bible and God without evidence whatsoeever. We do welcome discussion about the Bible with those who don't agree with it, but we cannot continue to allow poitnless accusations.

Please provide some evidence and explanation for your claims rather than just making statements as not only are they pointless (doesn't lead it anywhere) it also makes you appear unprofessional. If you are able to conduct a professional discussion we will of course discuss with you. If you continue to provide blank and pointless accusations and statements without evidence or any purpose then this thread will have to be closed.

"you o rmore or less just critizing the Bible and God without evidence whatsoeever." What are you talking about? I've given evidence.

"We do welcome discussion about the Bible with those who don't agree with it, but we cannot continue to allow poitnless accusations" There's nothing pointless about what I said.

"Please provide some evidence and explanation for your claims rather than just making statements" That's what I've been doing.

"If you are able to conduct a professional discussion we will of course discuss with you. If you continue to provide blank and pointless accusations and statements without evidence or any purpose then this thread will have to be closed." I am being professional, and I am giving evidence. I've given more than enough.

Many atheists read the Bible, and many know it better than most Christians do. 

I apologize for not giving references from the Bible in my posts.  The first was about the Ten Commandments, of course, drawn from Exodus 20.  The second was a survey of Biblical history that I hoped you would recognize.  I then ended with a summary of points from the New Testament concerning salvation wrought by the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus, the promised Messiah (drawn from Paul's epistle to the Romans^[1]).

This is the kind of evidence that we are asking of you. With vague accusations no discussion can continue. I left it quite open to you, mentioning the very acts you consider as genocide. That was accompanied with the FACT that God did not immediately kill anybody in these cases. Each case came after a prolonged period of tolerance and patience.

From the second chapter of Genesis on, the consequences of "disagreeing with" God (that is, the One who by definition knows everything already!) is going to be death^[2]. There is no getting around this fact. However, the fact that God did not kill Adam and Eve when they disobeyed the one prohibition shows LOVE, not HATE. Besides that, skins were provided (requiring death to substitute lives) before they were sent away from the Garden^[3]. The rest of the Bible works out this theme. People keep disobeying God, and He keeps punishing them. He is consistent, but patient.

But from Abel on there are those that trust God and it is these that God blesses. Meanwhile, those who treat these people well are blessed in the doing. There is an excellent list of these "heroes of the faith" in the New Testament book of Hebrews^[4]. That faith is not ignorance, but rather it is trust in an authority far greater than ourselves.

You have chosen to pick and choose bits of the Bible to pick a fight with God, hoping that you are correct about how things work in the universe. That, in a word, is foolish^[5]. I stand by my opinion that you have not read the Bible in context and with an open mind. You state that you "did read the Bible," leaving it ambiguous as to how much of it that you took the time to understand. There is no "information" in your original post. What you posted was an interpretation, a little more than an opinion. You indeed did as I said, interpreting justice on wickedness as "genocide" in contradiction to "Do not kill." That commandment states "Do not MURDER" (there are several words for slaying). Judicial execution is the prerogative of God.

When I stated that the 10 Commandments do not apply to God, I listed obvious reasons, which you blew off with a reference to power in the hands of men -- fallen sinful men. If the Commandments are true, it logically follows that God is the only one worthy of worship (1, 2 and 3). Commandment #4 is a provision for man, in his weakness, to rest and trust God. The rest have to do with inter-relations on the earth among men and women. So you see, they simply do not apply. God does not kill innocent people (definition of murder) or have them killed. The backstory in context makes this clear in all cases.

"Says you" is not an answer. Define "honest."

When I state the fact of the sacrifice of Christ, you just don't get it. Everybody, by virtue of being human, is heading towards eternity under condemnation. The LOVE is God saving many of them (aka "His people") from that fate^[6].

I state: "Now, I am going to make a separate post concerning your second point."

You answer: "perhaps you'd like to bring up the parts you didn't bring up."

Uh, who didn't read the post?

Should I wait for answers to my original points in which I postured questions to further discussion? Or should I post my original responses to your third and forth points?

1. ↑ Rom 1:1-6, 16-25; 3:10-11, 18-26; 5:1-9; 6:16-23 (Link)
2. ↑ Gen. 2:17 (Link)
3. ↑ Gen. 3:21 (Link)
4. ↑ Heb. 11:1-31 (Link)
5. ↑ Ps. 14:1; 53:1 (Link)
6. ↑ Rom. 3:20-28; 5:8 (Link)

Thank you for weighing in Snow.  Yes, they do, but "knowing" is a somewhat weighted concept.  The Bible is often "spiritual" in nature, and is only discerned by those reading it "in spirit."  Atheists do not have this advantage.

What I am asking "H.I." is to actually refer to the Bible rather than his overall opinion of it.  His points mostly are aimed at "religious people" versus the Bible.  What believers or religionists say or think is not what this wiki is about.

Yes, they would read it for historical and moral value, not as a spiritual narrative.

HorridInsidious wrote:

All over the World bad things happen, and God does nothing. Don't say "this is the work of Devil". If God is almighty, he can fix it all and delete Devil.

This is what is probably the most common "talking point" against God out there. It is surprizing that someone would come on a Bible-based site to proclaim it, though.

What you present is not the God of the Bible, but weak arguments of weak people. Evil is mostly a human problem, and it is so presented throughout the Bible. No demons were blamed as the tower was being built at Babel. It was man's own stubborness that stood against God's simple instructions to spread out. They could have done just about anything had it not been for the purpose God had in mind.

The reason "bad things happen" is not so complicated. Bad things happen because people want to live without God's rules restraining them. God did not create a race of automatons. As a result of choices, people end up wanting what is not theirs (10th Commandment) and going out to get it. This leads to crime (commandments 6 and 8, especially) and coverups (that would be #9). Greed, murder, theft, and all the rest, is man's fault. God is merciful and patient as He saves millions from the consequences of the crimes of others in so many ways.

He "fixed it all" with the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. The "fix" though, takes time. In that time, many good things happen in spite of it all. Jesus will "delete [the] Devil" at the very end of this present age. Then and only then will the "fix" be complete.

You've just proven my point. Jesus is waiting until AFTER the Devil has been brought into existence before deleting him, which proves just how lazy he and his father are. You can't blame man for something God took part in making in the first place. God created the Devil, Hell, and sin, so you can't blame man for bring about something God played a part in creating. What I've presented isn't anything "weak". It's what's in the Bible. And about Babel, they weren't doing anything bad by making the tower.