I am 16. I have noticed a lot of my friends habits have begun to be distract me and I am trying to further educate myself on my religion to remind myself of what is important. I happened to find this site.
Are you R. Catholic or Protestant? (If you are comfortable disclosing) I'm just trying to get an idea of the editors and forum members here.
No, Lina. Just the Bible. We try to keep it "Bible Only" and leave the interpretation up to theologians and preachers. Full disclosure, I was trained as a preacher many years ago and am somewhat of a "theologian". That being said, I try to keep false teachings off the Wiki.
As long as a contributor keeps everything in context, all contributions are welcome. I look forward to your contributions. Thank you for your interest.
God started creating the universe by creating the laws and forces of the universe. He then created a ball of water called the Deep that compromised all the matter in the universe. This is what He made the world with. The Deep was at least two-light years in diameter; somewhere within it was the formless and void earth. The Holy Spirit hovered over these dark waters. When He commanded light to exist, the gravity that held the Deep together created a black hole, which compressed the Deep together rapidly. Fusion took place inside the deep, which gave off energy in the form of light. God saw the light and that it was good. He separated it from the darkness and named the light "Day" and the darkness "Night". When God separated the light from the darkness, the gravity from the black hole pulled the light back. God wrapped Himself in like as with a cloak, being the new light source for a time. Because of the laws set in place by God, the deep had begun to spin earlier and had now spun for 24 earth hours. The Bible says there was evening, and then there was morning, comprising the first day.
First: "the Deep that compromised all the matter in the universe"
I think you meant "that was composed of all the matter of the universe."
Actually, according to the best science, this ball also took up all the space in the universe at the time.
Second: "somewhere within it was the formless and void earth"
More correctly, the earth WAS the ball of water. In the process of the second day, there would be an expansion, separating the waters.
Then, "the Deep together created a black hole, which compressed the Deep together rapidly. "
This seems to be misuse of the word created, but mostly, I don't believe that a black hole was allowed to form. I believe, instead, that the physics of a "bound universe" would produce a "white hole" out of which matter, energy and space/time would come.
Finally, "When God separated the light from the darkness, the gravity from the black hole pulled the light back. God wrapped Himself in like as with a cloak, being the new light source for a time."
I must admit, the reference to Psalm 104:2 is creative (no pun intended). However, God did not take the light "for a time." The light prior to day four was undoubtedly the glory of His presence lighting up the "near side" of the deep/earth. The "separating" the light from the darkness was the case of God creating what we call "time" with a rotation of the primal sphere. Gen. 1:4 defines that kind of "light" as "Day" as opposed to the darkness of "Night."
Consider what I have written on my wiki as a guide. However, remember that SDS did not think my article worthy of moving over to Bible Wiki.
God bless you for coming up with this wiki, buddy. As a Baptist Christian and fellow creation of God the Father I can totally relate to everything here. I'm sure I would get along with the people in this community very well. :)
I did some research about predestination and this is what I have learned:
Romans 9:22-23 "22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—" God predetermined the general outcomes - either wrath or glory - but the saved or the destroyed determine their own fate (in response to God's initiating grace). The criterion for inclusion or exclusion in "My-people" (verse 25) is whether sinners pursue righteousness by faith or in self-reliance (see also Romans 9:32, 10:3-4)
Romans 10:9-10 "9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." One must willingly choose to accept Christ as their Lord to be saved. Confessing sincerely that Jesus is Lord results in salvation.
Hebrews 10:26-31 "26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." It is possible to lose one's salvation by deliberately sinning, so the predestination doctrine doesn't work. Also, if we are predestined, ultimately God is responsible for the sins we commit. If God predetermined where we go when we die, then it is reasonable to believe that God predetermines what we say and do, which implies that God causes us to sin. However, Psalm 5:4 tells us that there is no evil in God nor does He delight in wickedness. So He wouldn't have caused us to sin, making Him not responsible of sin, which implies that our actions are not predestined. It is our fault that we sin, so it is also up to us if we choose to accept salvation or continue living dead in our sins (Romans 10:3-4, 9-10). But God has predetermined the end results of those who follow or reject Him (as I mentioned above), without predetermining who they are (Romans 9:22-23). If God had predestined us, then those who are predestined to be damned don't have a fair shot at salvation. So if God has predestined us, then God is evil, and I believe He is a good God and not evil.
John 1:12 "12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—" Those who choose to receive Christ & believe in His name are given the right to be children of God. Obviously we are not predestined to be children of God.
You may also want to check out John 5:24, 34, 40, 6:47, 8:24, 31, and 9:35-39.
I have been spending a few hours working on a response, but in re-reading this, I can see that you are not looking at verses "on predestination" but instead deny its possibility on a personal basis. It seems that you hold to a veiw that God depends on the actions of men and women to "seal the deal." You say as much as that when you state "If God had predestined us, then those who are predestined to be damned don't have a fair shot at salvation."
The whole argument of the Book of Romans is that people know perfectly well that God is there, but they choose to reject him. And that means every single one! The point of God's love is that any of us are saved (Rom 5:8; 6:23). It is not love if God just offers everyone a gift and waits. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us!! That is personal. The church as a body is not a sinner, but a pure bride (Rev. 21:2), so it is not the predestinated group about which Paul writes in Romans 8:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
You are building an argument based on human reasoning rather than from the Word of God. When you read the Bible in context, then the logic of a sovereign God -- who both brings birth and new birth to whomever He choses (Rom 9:6-13) makes far more sense. It is, God the Father who choses us, and not the other way around. The verses above don't say that we earn God's favor, but that we are called to a purpose. And that calling comes after God has known us personally beforehand and decided that we are the ones that will be in His church. Only then did he call and justify us.
Those verses lead up to a beautiful promise that once we are in God's care, He will never let go of us! (Rom 8:31-31). Yes, God is the one who condemns and who saves. The truth is, it is by his mercy that any are saved. Praise His holy name that he has saved HIS people from THEIR sins (Matt 1:21). What the writer to the Hebrews is saying is concerning those who join the church but are not first saved. They taste the sweetness of the fellowship, and maybe even do all kinds of good works, but then turn away from God. Jesus speaks of these in the parable of the soils -- the seed that fall in the rocky ground see some growth, but wither and die; those in the weedy ground show growth but are"strangled" and do not produce fruit. There will even be those that do good works "in His name" but are sent away into condemnation.
I freely acknowledge that the verses that you provided teach a choice is being made. However, the faithful have been reborn before they make that choice. As I wrote in the thread, believers are that way because of the work that God has done for them, and is doing in them. Just as we have no part in our natural birth, so we have no part in our spiritual rebirth. Spiritual life comes from God, not from within our unsaved, spiritual dead, minds. Continuing in context, John 1:
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
It is pretty clear that we cannot cause our own birth. We are not "born" Christian, nor can we be forced to believe by others. And we certainly don't do it because we "want to" while in a state of sin. God gives us the Spirit, and we are born "from above." It is a process, just like in physical life. God forms us over time, bringing us into His family at just the right time. At that point, as we take that first breath, we are "born." Jesus' words to Nicodemus lay it out for us.
It is plain that you picked good verses about chosing. But you left out a whole lot of verses that say that this is God working in us to make us who we are. For those who end up rejecting Him, they go the "way of the world." They are not "sent to hell." If God had not changed us, we would end up with the rest. If you like, I can continue on in another post.
It's been awhile since this is active, but I have learned a few things about this. While God is all-knowing, He is not directing everything. It may be that some were predestined to be a key part of God's plan, while everyone else who weren't predestined are still able to be go to heaven. As for the Ephesians reference to predestination, the method of our being saved was predestined. In a way, everyone is predestined to be saved (God wants all to come to repentance) but we can reject our destiny. We have free will, and we are predestined to go to heaven. It is up to us to accept or reject our destiny. We accept our destiny through Christ. Without Him, we live in a way that rejects our destiny.
Christian, it is clear that what I wrote earlier did nothing to sway your view. I can only pray that the Holy Spirit will grant you the insight to see His hand in all things. The word translated "predestinate" is προορίζω, from the words "pro" and "horizo" -- that is, to determine the end (horizon) beforehand. It is not just knowing, that is the word προγινώσκω, clearly "to know beforehand." God knows the end from the beginning, so that terminal point is set in the will of God. The Bible is clear that He is indeed directing everything. Predestination is unchangeable by its very nature. God does not change His mind.
Be thankful that He has chosen you. Seek His will in your life. That way, you won't be disappointed when things don't go the way you wanted them to do. With Jesus, pray, "Thy Will, Father, not mine."
προορίζω actually means "to limit in advance; i.e. (fig.) predetermine". Also, where in the Bible does it say that predestination is "unchangeable by its very nature"? Also, where does it say that God is "directing everything"? At the least, He knows everything and is able to direct everything, but doesn't to allow us to have free will. This still allows Him to be sovereign and keep us from being "robots" that do whatever we are commanded to do. I have a few other points I want to bring up. If it is God's will that all come to repentance, why would He only select a few to come to repentance? Romans 8:29-30 says that those He foreknew (προγινώσκω "to know beforehand") He predestinated (προορίζω "to limit in advance") to be conformed to the image of Jesus, they who were predestinated were called (καλέω "to call") and were justified (δικαιόω "to render just or innocent") and glorified (δικαιόω "render glorious"). Now we know that God knew everyone prior to Genesis 1:1, and that not all are justified and glorified. So it is possible that all were predestinated to be conformed to the image of Jesus and called, but many have rejected that destiny while those who accept it are justified and glorified. The wording may allow for this possibility, for it doesn't say all who were called were justified.
Other than those few things, I agree with everything else you just said.
I was recently having a conversation with Superdadsuper, and he recommended I speak with you on the chat for various reasons, one of them being he didn't have the time or enough resources to continue conversing with me on the terms we were leaning towards.
If you could just give me a day and time that we could talk on chat, I could notify Superdadsuper and he could keep watch.
Thank you, for contacting me. I have not been purposely avoiding you. Supe has told me about your wanting to talk to me, but I keep forgetting stuff. Oh, to be young again.
Just about any evening but Sunday's and Wednesdays should be just fine. I will begin a vacation in the second week of August, so hopefully we can get together a few times before that. Meanwhile, questions to this page will work well. I check my email for alerts just about every day.
Cool. The usual Chat Times (formerly advertized on the home page) are Monday [5:30-6:30] and Tuesday [8:00 to 9:00]. Tuesday actually works pretty well for me (if I don't let myself get into something else!). Even earlier works fine, barring a late supper. What time is best for you?